How closely do you want/need the tone of superhero TV shows to mirror “real life” and why?

I've been following this interesting discussion for about a week now and have to say I see good points on both "sides" (for lack of a better term). I'm 4 years into retirement so I am hardly the target demographic for Supergirl. On the other hand I really wasn't into comics much as a kid, so I don't have much history to tap into other than what I've seen from this show and some of the earlier Superman movies with Christopher Reeve. On the whole I am enjoying this season the most, and I agree with those who have stated that a more-relatable Supergirl storyline is more interesting and compelling. I think the production team has done a good job balancing that aspect with what we might call "happy" Kara, so I think there is something here for everyone to enjoy. Yes, the first 9 episodes have definitely been darker, but the first was the darkest in terms of Kara's personality itself, and by the end of that episode she was beginning to come out of it. That is a progression I expect will continue in the second part of the season. By June I think we will see Kara return to something like her season 1 form, but much more mature and focused.

I may be in a minority, but I would love to see Kara and Mon-el get back together by season's end, but in a much more mature relationship than before. Their chemistry is off the charts, way more than Flash/Iris or Oliver/Felicity (or Mon-el/Imra, for that matter). It seems foolish to waste that and I think if it was done well (i.e. not a soap opera) it would fill in an important part of Kara as a whole person. That being said, I'm really not sure how this could be accomplished under the current casting. But the Legion story isn't doing anything for me. Maybe that's because I lack the comics background, as said previously, but right now it doesn't seem interesting. IMO this trio creates emotional drama and little else.

Kiwi - Buffy was killed as a cliffhanger at the end of Season 5. I believe, if I remember correctly, she was back by the end of the season opener. But, I think it was a two-part premiere and she didn't get back until the end of that. I actually hated Season 6 of Buffy, not because it was too dark but, because Buffy was almost completely disconnected emotionally from her family and friends for quite a bit of the season.

I don't think that this season with Kara, so far, is anything like Season 6 of Buffy. Kara is struggling to find herself and has moments when she tried to separate herself from her family/friends (specifically in Episode 1) but, for the most part, she still feels a deep emotional connection to them.

To talk about a Season being dark or not, I think we almost need to distinguish what it is that makes a show dark because I don't think that Supergirl this season has turned completely dark, with the exception of Episode 9. The mood has maybe been a bit more depressing and brooding than previously, although there were many episodes in Season 1 that had those same elements. But, this season still has had some lighter moments and we're really not even half-way through the season to render a proper judgement on it as a whole.

I think that adding some edge and some darker tones to the show helps give the characters and the show more depth. The producers may be targeting the millennials but, I don't think that a desire to see those elements in shows is limited to just them. Honestly, I believe that the shallowness of previous seasons has been one of the Supergirl show's weaknesses and why it has turned some viewers off to it, of various ages. The key is finding a proper balance, which is not an easy task to do when your viewers are as diverse in demographics as they are for the show.

As a child, I watched WW and enjoyed it for the fact that it was the first time I was able to see a female superhero on prime-time television. But, even as a child I can recall thinking that it was a very superficial, low-stakes show. However, that campy, cheerful, light atmosphere prevalent in WW was a commonality across many of the shows up until the early to mid 80's because that was how society, and entertainment as a by-product, wanted life to be depicted. So, people from those generations were used to reading it/seeing it and televison shows, at that time, had success because of it.

But, I don't think we should expect that superheroes and comics that were written 40-50 years ago should have the same characteristics and the same tone today. From what I understand, the print comics/superheroes have changed over time to reflect the time period. Most likely, this change was made with the purpose of exposing new, younger audiences to the characters with the hope that interest in the characters would continue to grow. That is the goal for superhero fans- to keep the genre thriving with each new generation. To do that, they have to compete with what is on television, in the movies and in print during that generation. And, for today's society, that means superheroes that are more real, have more depth and are a bit more dark. The WW in the theaters just a few months ago is a perfect example of that change. Gal Gadot's WW was written and produced as a reflection of the current times and as a result, millions viewed it and WW has never been more popular because of it.

My opinion, take it or leave it, is that if we want the Supergirl legacy to compete and continue, we have to change our thinking from "our Supergirl was" because "this Supergirl" has to be for today's generation.

But as long as the show keeps the essential character of Kara the same, I'm fine with it. But if they attempt to drastically change her personality, then maybe not....

Definitely, the best thing though Stewart is that Melissa herself wants to keep Kara's character at her core the same.
So what I take from that is if Melissa wanted a radical change to Kara's personality she probably would've accepted a change to the costume (similar to how she dressed in the Black suit when affected by Red Kryptonite in the episode 'Falling').

In Triggers, when Kara questioned who she was because she felt broken, Alex told Kara that she is who she is as Kara, who she is as Supergirl. That, to me, is the message that we need to remember. Moods change, personalities do not. Kara maybe going through some tough times but, she will always come back to who she is as Kara, so I don't think we need to worry about a drastic change to her personality.

The problem I had as a kid reading comic books, the few that I did read were usually friends of mine, while they were reading them. I never found a female superhero that I could relate to.... I loved the Fantastic Four because they didn't try to hide their identity, but Sue Storm was boring to me. I wanted to be her brother, not her.

I always wanted to be Superman. I didn't read comics but I was an avid cartoon watcher and Superman and Friends was my favorite cartoon. I'm not positive but, I don't think Supergirl was even on it. WW was nice but, they didn't even let her throw a punch or do anything that might have broken a fingernail - just used that lasso and the problem was solved. Loved Bionic Woman, too!

Well said....

Thanks.

But the Legion story isn't doing anything for me. Maybe that's because I lack the comics background, as said previously, but right now it doesn't seem interesting. IMO this trio creates emotional drama and little else

I'm not at all interested in the Legion but, I know that others are so, if they're only on for a couple of episodes, I'm okay with it. And yes, I agree that the main focus for them right now is to create drama for the sake of having drama. I have yet to see a romantic pairing that SG has done right so, I am not confident that they would be able to put together Mon-el and Kara without it being a soap opera drama.

If it is getting back with Monel that makes Kara hapoy, then the haters of theur relationship ship will be almost correct in what they were saying last season. Kara need to find her happines through herself, not a relationship....that is what I didnt like about Alex and Maggie.

I think that you are correct, in the sense that the situations can be completely fantastical, but it's important that how the characters react to those situations have a genuine feel to it. It's one thing I've found fantastic about Supergirl, and the other Berlanti DC productions. The situations the characters find themselves in are crazy and ridiculous, but the actors are able to portray the characters' responses to these situations in very real and grounded ways.

In my head, when we talk about TV mirroring real life, I usually think of if, and to what extent, it comments on current political and cultural issues.

With comic book shows, this is a hard question to gauge, in the sense of correlating events in shows or comics to current political, economic, and cultural issues. I like them to mirror as much as their comic book counterparts, I guess. Some people complain about the show's political stance, or how it portrays LGBT relationships. However, I think these kinds of stories are incredibly important. And comics have always been a commentary on the state of the world.

For example, Superman and Supergirl have always been immigrants, so I've always found it appropriate when the show addressed that issue, particularly in season 2.

Solicits for March comic books mention Supergirl has a new, non-binary friend. The solicit was brief, but I take that to mean non-binary gender. This is clearly an issue that is very relevant in today's world, particularly for youth who have a hard time coming to terms with themselves.

It's a hard line to ride. I feel like these shows should address the the issues of the modern world. Sometimes addressing those issues can be crystal clear, and mirror real life, like Alex's coming-out arc, and how genuine it felt. But sometimes, they can be addressed in a more fictional medium, such as how they correlated immigrants from outer space to immigrants in real life. Or like how Parasite's intentions, before being transformed, were noble, as he was working to help prevent Global Warming.


Television should be entertaining, but should also hold a mirror up to the world, in some way. Yes, the "target demographic" is 18-49 year olds. But children and teens watch these shows. And the lessons they take from what they watch in their youth stays with them their entire lives.

That being said, I feel like Berlanti DC TV shows have found that balance. I particularly enjoy Legends of Tomorrow on some of these issues. When you have an episode in the 1950's, and a young woman can't express how she is attracted to Sara, or Jax is persecuted for going on a date with a white girl...it points a mirror back at society, showing how far we have come, but still how far we have yet to go. People still struggle with understanding and being comfortable with their sexuality. And while we like to think (and hope) that racism isn't as bad as it once was, it's still an uphill battle.

That was a long winded response, and it may not necessarily be what you meant, but I've always found it effective, and extremely important, for fictional television to address real cultural issues in a fictional medium. It's one of the things that made Star Trek so revolutionary.

...I do think it might be hard to discuss tone of the show and not include those topics in your edit because tone is a result of all of those aspects....

I’m actually cautiously ok with including social/political issues as part of tone but only if it’s part of a person’s why like @kdogg87. I just don’t want the thread to turn into a discussion about weather political elements belong in the show. If you don’t believe political elements belong as part of tone then simply don’t mention it, I want to hear what people want not what they don’t want. I thought I would be more restrictive knowing people have a tendency to extrapolate.

As far as mirroring what is going on in society, I don't really see a problem with that....comics have been doing that for decades....probably some of the most political pieces of literature today are comics.

But, as far a a girl who can fly, kick arse, and whatever else they need her to do.....be fantastic, go big or go home.

I DO HOWEVER, think the writing needs to be consistent however, and in how all of this relates to the Supergirl series, as far a Kara's powers, the writing has been all over the place.

IMHO, the writers should have sat down and said....ok, this is what can really hurt Kara, this is what she can overcome, this is what will put her out of the game for awhile, this is what humans can do, this is what Kryptonians can do, this is what other aliens can do to Kara....and then try and stay as consistent as possible.

Case in point.....Supergirl vs. Superman Kara doesn't even have a bloody nose, YET, according to Superman he was at full power.

Supergirl vs. Reign Kara is beaten to a bloody pulp....

Where did they go wrong? Astra, Non and Superman should have brought blood if Reign is going to be able to do to her what she did....

Humans however should hit Kara and it bounce off like they just hit a brick wall, and yet we know this has not happened either....humans have put Kara on the floor.

UNLESS at some point, we find out that actually Reign is a Kryptonian on crack.....then what has happened can pass as reality in this fantastical world of Supergirl. I tend to....in my own head.....go with the answer that Reign is a Kryptonian on crack.

So, in closing......with the fantastical there has to be some reality in consistency.

...I do think it might be hard to discuss tone of the show and not include those topics in your edit because tone is a result of all of those aspects....

I’m actually cautiously ok with including social/political issues as part of tone but only if it’s part of a person’s why like @kdogg87. I just don’t want the thread to turn into a discussion about weather political elements belong in the show. If you don’t believe political elements belong as part of tone then simply don’t mention it, I want to hear what people want not what they don’t want. I thought I would be more restrictive knowing people have a tendency to extrapolate.

When someone says that political and social issues should be in a series, because that is what helps to set the overall tone of the show, and they have no problem with it I don't think are saying they agree or disagree with what is being said on the show. I watch all kinds of shows that are on the political spectrum from one end to the other....I don't have to agree with them.
I mean, how exactly are you going to talk about realism if you don't talk about realism....lol It is a show about a woman in the 21st century....what would one talk about as far as what is real in her world? If you talk about her job, you will get into social and political aspects of it, especially in journalism. If we talk about her as a servant of the people, you would get into those aspects again. If you talk about her working for a government agency....?

If people do not think that the show should talk about politics...ok, that is their opinion. If they think it should, that is their opinion. If some think that Supergirl should be apolitical, I'm cool with that as well. But all of that IS a part of the realism of the show.

To me, I think the REAL QUESTION IS..... what lens does one watch the show through....

If you watch the show through the Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age....whatever age comic book lens then you are going to see things far differently than someone who is watching it through a 20 something, professional woman lens, or a 13 year old girl lens.....

OR, does one simply watch it through the lens of just wanting to chill and enjoy a tv series? That would be me....that is why I'm really not into the whole character/science/whatever analysis of the show.....some people see it through a different lens. If you watch it through a political lens, then YES, you are going to find it either ok, or not ok depending on your leanings....I don't watch it through that lens, I describe mine at the end.

So to me, whatever lens you are watching it through really, IMO, says how much fantasy vs. realism you want and enjoy.

As for me, if 75% of 99% of the episodes are centered on Kara/Supergirl, and Melissa is on the screen the most, and Supergirl is being Super......then I'm good with how much political, social, fantastical, real stuff they want to put in it, no matter if I agree with it or not. I'm here to be entertained....

A huge part of the enjoyment of this show is the fact it concerns a creature from across the skies who has incredible powers and a determination to protect humans in the face of significant challenges. This is lots of fun. (It helps that the creature coincidentally happens to look like MB rather than ET.)

For me though, it is not enough. It needs to be anchored to reality in some way, to provide lasting interest. We are fortunate in having an actress who is able to provide real depth to the characters of Kara and Supergirl, whilst also being a totally convincing action hero. But this interest comes not only from her emotions (and of those around her), but also the context (political/social) she has to operate in. The place of women in the world, acceptance of other cultures and races, giving to others to your own detriment, are all issues that seem to me to be inextricably wired into the story of this Supergirl (not read the comics I am afraid).

So for me, lots of super-ness please. But put it in a real context that I can connect with.

(Kiwi, I am afraid that real fantasy is what and English rugby supporter experiences when contemplating defeating the All Blacks!)

"They do sometimes do the eye roll at the "happy go lucky" Kara, because they don't believe in reality anyone can be that happy all the time...."

And of course, this brings us right back to the original question that was asked: how closely do you want the show to mirror real life? Apparently, your students want more "reality" in Supergirl than some of us "old-timers" do. But of course, I grew up with "happy go lucky" Kara of the 60s and 70s comics, so it's what I expect she'll be like. Perhaps your students are growing up with more "realistic" superhero and science fiction shows (and comics), so that's what they expect to see.
Like Kiwi said, for me the answer to the original question is -, "not too closely"

Hmmmmm..... I enjoy characters that I can relate to, characters that go through some of the things I go through, and then throw in the kick arse action, great acting, and you have some of my favorite characters on TV. Growing up, comic books were very campy to me as a kid, but I knew that they were going to be so that wasn't that big of a shock when major camp was happening on the page. However, on TV, I don't want that "same camp" when it is on the page, those characters are not as real to me as they are on screen, so over campy is fine. On screen, not so much fine....I don't need to relate to them in a comic book to enjoy it, as much as I do on screen. So, less camp, less cheese is more to my liking.....that is why I don't necessarily have to have the characters just as they are in the comics, though if the villain is HUGE in the comics, they need to be on the screen as well....don't have to look the same, but they need to bring the same amount of hurt. THAT has nothing to do with camp.

"..though if the villain is HUGE in the comics, they need to be on the screen as well....don't have to look the same, but they need to bring the same amount of hurt. THAT has nothing to do with camp."

Yes, I agree! Mr. Mxyzptlk is a good example (though he didn't really bring "hurt"

When I first started writing Supergirl fan fiction stores of my own, one of the first comments I received was that my stories offered very few dangers to Kara - and that I needed some more powerful villains. So, realizing that the commenters were right, I subsequently started coming up with more powerful "bad guys" (synthetic kryptonite, anyone?), and lowering Kara's "vulnerability threshold" a bit, too. That way, my readers could start seeing Supergirl in some real peril in one scene in each story, as they apparently wanted to.

I never really saw Mxy as a villain....he always reminded me of "The Great Gazoo" on the Flintstones.

Hmmmmm..... I enjoy characters that I can relate to, characters that go through some of the things I go through, and then throw in the kick arse action, great acting, and you have some of my favorite characters on TV. Growing up, comic books were very campy to me as a kid, but I knew that they were going to be so that wasn't that big of a shock when major camp was happening on the page. However, on TV, I don't want that "same camp" when it is on the page, those characters are not as real to me as they are on screen, so over campy is fine. On screen, not so much fine....I don't need to relate to them in a comic book to enjoy it, as much as I do on screen. So, less camp, less cheese is more to my liking.....that is why I don't necessarily have to have the characters just as they are in the comics, though if the villain is HUGE in the comics, they need to be on the screen as well....don't have to look the same, but they need to bring the same amount of hurt. THAT has nothing to do with camp.

Exactly, at least to me the level of camp I want to see in live action is much lower than on paper or even in animation. I think it's something about seeing an actual person dressed as a superhero, I need the character to still be a relatable person. It takes a special kind of actor to pull that off and that's where I think both Melissa and Grant's musical theater backgrounds help. They're trained to convince audiences that it's no big deal to break out in song so why not take it further and convince us they have superpowers. I tried watching the Adam West Batman last summer and I just could not get into it. I know the point is it was so campy that at times it was making fun of its self but it just wasn't for me. The Lynda Carter Wonder Woman show I could get into, it was still campy but much less, at least you understood Diana as a character and what motivated her.

The problem I had as a kid reading comic books, the few that I did read were usually friends of mine, while they were reading them. I never found a female superhero that I could relate to.... I loved the Fantastic Four because they didn't try to hide their identity, but Sue Storm was boring to me. I wanted to be her brother, not her. No one I knew was really reading DC comics back then, they were into Spiderman, etc....so they were more Marvel readers.

I use to always get excited watching reruns of the old Batman tv series when in the intro I would see Batgirl riding her motorcycle and I knew she was in that particular episode. But she sometimes made me roll my eyes as well. I loved the Wonder Woman TV series, but actually it wasn't until The Bionic Woman that I really felt like I had found someone that I could relate to.....she was a tennis player, that was my main sport.....and she was a teacher, that is what I wanted to be, so she was perfect as far as I was concerned....LOL I have watched some reruns of it, and OMG, what was I thinking....LOL, but it still brought back great memories. I loved the remake of it, too bad it got hit by the 2007 writer's strike and was just never given much of a chance, but the 7 episodes that made it to air were pretty good. I liked the sister aspect that they brought into the reboot.

Smallville bored the heck out of me, and the acting was just cringe worthy so I never got into it. I loved the first season of Agents of Shield, but by the 3rd season I was bored.

I am glad that Supergirl decided to take a different tone this season, I don't mind it at all. Do I enjoy happy Kara? of course.....I want her to be happy. I think that is why I've been so pissed at Mon-el. I'm not sure if they are trying to get us to like Imra by it looking like she is empathetic to Kara, or make us not like Mon-el because he seems to be oblivious to her feelings. I have no clue, but I'm not really happy with that part of the story line. THANK GOODNESS, the other story lines have been fantastic. Now that Floriana is gone, I'm ready to see less emo-Alex, and more kick arse Alex. So, I'm looking forward to more of that from Kara as well......as much as I love Chris in the role of Mon-el, I'm already getting tired of that little threesome. Hoping that we are able to move on with The Legion, get Kara out of the coma, and send The Legion back home. That story line hasn't even started, and I'm already tired of it.....LOL I think the hiatus may have something to do with that......

Just one more thing I wanted to say here. You don't have to be a Baby Boomer to enjoy the DC Comics of the 60s and 70s. Many of the people at the school where I teach are aware that I write Supergirl fan fiction stories featuring Kara in her Silver Age persona. Some of the younger teachers (both Gen X and Millennials) and even some of my students have told me that they really enjoy my stories, too!. And they all agree that Supergirl was never the hippest superhero around, just the friendliest and the most likable

Setting aside the soap opera aspect of Mon-el and Kara, I have a different question regarding that relationship, which is:

If Mon-el was to stay now and be in a long-term relationship with Kara, what do they do with him?

Mon-el is basically a mini-Supermanl in his powers. The show has introduced Superman and they have J'onn right there in the same city, at the same place of work as Supergirl. Whenever there is any type of major incident, viewers already ask where the two of them are at to help Supergirl. So, what does the show do with Mon-El? Does he become yet another underutilized superhero that creates future plot holes? Do they let him use his powers and the show becomes an ensemble superhero show? (no vote from me on that) Or do they completely ignore his powers and his role becomes Kara's love-interest, much in the same way that James was in Season 1?

Mon-el is an okay character and I especially like Woods as an actor but, I think the producers have to look more long-term and how a character with his attributes can fit into an already large cast. Mon-El was Kara's first love but, first love doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be last love. Let the girl live her life a little bit as Supergirl/Kara and if indeed Mon-El is the right guy for her, bring him back when the show is closer to the final season to finish it off. That's what I would like to see anyway.

"Then when Melissa got Supergirl, that brought me back to those comics so I purchased Showcase Presents Supergirl Vol. 2, began reading that......then moved to the New 52 and found those to be more enjoyable for me. But, I've really enjoyed the most recent iterations the best.....I've really enjoyed the Rebirth comics...."

Did you read "The Adventures of Supergirl" comics series by Sterling Gates - the one that paralleled the TV show (in the summer after Season 1)? That is by far my favorite of the recent Supergirl comics. I loved Gates' take on the contemporary Supergirl. Too bad he isn't writing for the TV show now!

Depends on what the show is. Superheroes shows, for example, need not mirror reality at all. They can, but don’t have to.

A show is hurt however when the premise in universe state one thing but then it tries another, e.g. when the President is Olivia Marsdin but the show reflects America under Trump. There is no moral stance involved, simply the destruction of the fictional integrity from a narrative perspective.

On the other hand, ideas are different to events. For example, in real life or in any universe, women should be equal to men. Hence the promotion of good causes won’t drag the show down or hurt the fictional universe unless they are done in reference to real life. I’m sure some shows are written with a message or allegory in mind and especially for the allegorial shows then it is essential to mirror reality in some ways. I right now am working on a comic allegory series set in a futuristic planetary system, but intending to mirror and expose the imperialist nature of the recent Iraq and Afghan wars.

But of course the question is not limited to politics/morality. I actually prefer settings of scifi/fantasy where it barely is like real life. I think a large part of the appeal of fiction is that it offers a glimpse into things unseen daily, where people deal with imaginary problems like War of the Five Kings instead of the Syrian War. Which is kinda why I dig Star Wars over Star Trek, even if Star Trek has a classless economy where everyone is equal that makes a commie like me happy as hell.

Tough question without any simple answers. I do think it might be hard to discuss tone of the show and not include those topics in your edit because tone is a result of all of those aspects. And my expectation would be different based on the genre of the show and what was pitched by the producers. For a superhero show, I go into it with the knowledge that reality will be skewed. That said, I do like your choice of words that you need the characters to be grounded. But, I would lean more towards not needing characters to be ones that I can relate to but, rather that the characters are believable in their behavior - that, how they react makes sense because it is based on their experiences and personality. That makes them grounded for me.

Along with character consistency, I also like to have the story, conflict and resolution in a superhero show to make some sense. Again, it can be outside of the bounds of reality but, it needs to be plausible in the context that it is written.

As far as Kara and her behavior is concerned this season, based on her experiences of loss, abandonment, displacement and her empathetic, hero driven personality, I completely believe the struggles that she has been having and how she has responded to those struggles. I also think that the story elements are more consistent. As a result, I have enjoyed this season so far.

...I do think it might be hard to discuss tone of the show and not include those topics in your edit because tone is a result of all of those aspects....

I actually cautiously ok with including social/political issues as part of tone but only if it’s part of a person’s why like @kdogg87. I just don’t want the thread to turn into a discussion about weather political elements belong in the show. If you don’t believe political elements belong as part of tone then simply don’t mention it, I want to hear what people want not what they don’t want. I thought I would be more restrictive knowing people have a tendency to extrapolate.

Oh, I completely understand it. My first thought when I saw the topic was that it could become very divisive so, I'm glad to see a disclaimer on it . It's just difficult to discuss the two separately.