[Opinion Piece] Mon-El being with Kara does not infringe on her being a hero

Well there's no Mon-El anymore so I believe this discussion is no longer relevant. All should be happy now

Here is a true fact and only one. The only one Hating on Mon-El are people that want Kara gay with Lena. Yeah they are such huge hypocrites

It is a disservice to blame all of the negative Mon-el reaction on shipping and shippers.

so he shouldn't yet he does. there is something about this portrayal of the character that is simply offputting, he holds her back, he is needy and clingy, she is insecure and lonely and it is just a terrible combination. She seems weaker around him (I don't mean vulnerable, I mean weaker) and we don't get the support and encouragement like when we do when Alex is in the mix. I am looking forward to seeing her move on in a more healthy direction

Oh and some people like to post lengthy discussions on fiction they like and some people see no point in it at all, of both I reckon it's all G. I'm sometimes of the former, sometimes of the latter, and no matter whether you couldn't care less or type up a page really it's just good fun.

Here is a true fact and only one. The only one Hating on Mon-El are people that want Kara gay with Lena. Yeah they are such huge hypocrites

To be fair that isn't entirely true but yes a lot are those types. I don't agree with their position at all but I won't comment on what I think of them, they are free to think as they like.

*sighs* I had this whole post typed out, and realized....it is a waste of time. I've typed it and posted, and edited, and have now deleted it a second time....LOL



My plan?

I'm going to SHUT UP! And enjoy my favorite show.


Out.....

I was reading through the many posts here and while there are many interesting points being made (even some I’ve seen echoed at other sites), and @Fedguy I agree with your original posts, I wanted to add that it struck me that perhaps some folks are over analyzing this show to the detriment of their enjoyment.

IMO, this series is a heartfelt, sometimes soapy, often tropey show about the life, loves, and adventures of the superhero, Supergirl. And while in telling Kara's story the show's writers/producers often indulge in plainly voicing their ideological views of the real world and adding that into the story, the show isn’t an art house film where everything has a deeper meaning and is symbolic in nature. Not everything is intended to be social commentary, and I think that generally applies to Kara and Mon-El’s relationship

IMO, Kara and Mon-El are simply two strong willed people with different personalities, different upbringings and life experiences who have strong romantic feelings for each other and so they have decided to pursue a romantic relationship because of those feelings. That’s it. Kara forgiving Mon-El his mistakes means nothing more than Kara is a forgiving person. And yes, while Mon-El is, as Argo said, a pre-feminist male (because that's the society he was born into on his planet), Mon-El doesn’t listen to Kara’s directions at times because he’s stubborn and mule-headed, not because of some deep-seated hate for women with power (and in fact Mon-El has said to Kara that he thinks she's awesome - the way she fights and wins on her own terms makes her awesome).

Kara forgives Mon-El his mistakes because she’s a self-empowered woman who wields the power of forgiveness just as gracefully and deftly as she wields her physical strength. Kara has forgiven family, friends, and even villains all sorts of things and her forgiving Mon-El after he apologizes for his latest screw-up is just that -- forgiveness. That’s all that means. It’s not intended to be social commentary on the behaviors that enable abusive relationships. And Mon-El telling Kara that his feelings for her are his kryptonite (and yes, he clarified that his feelings for Kara were his kryptonite) was an imperfect way for him to say that his feelings for her overwhelmed him because he feels so strongly for her, and that such deep emotion is so new to him that it put him wildly off balance. I don’t think he was trying to say or imply that his love for her made him weak, at all. Of course, people are free to interpret those lines as him saying that love is weakness, but that goes back to my point that doing so I think is to over analyze the story, and taking it to the point that you’ve killed the story.

I’m not saying engaging in constructive critiques of the show (or any show) is bad (and indeed it can be entertaining to do as a viewer), but I think there’s a tendency to indulge in a degree of analysis that goes beyond critique and squarely into dissection, and the moment you’ve started to dissect something you’ve killed it. It’s no longer a story but a hollow, dissected carcass; the story has been pulled apart, the pieces marinated in formaldehyde and then sliced into tiny slivers that are stuck under a microscope in search for some greater meaning. But the thing is is that sometimes a story is simply a story and there's no deep, dark underbelly of subtext to be found by dissecting it.

People are free to analyze a show however much and in any manner that they want, but I think sometimes that robs one of the enjoyment from just watching the story unfold because there’s too much attention and effort being put into trying to find some deep, dark meaning in every action, every word, every twitch when no such subtext exists. As the saying goes, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Kara's romance with Mon-El doesn't make her weak and IMO there's nothing in the characters' behaviors or in the writing that implies that or is trying to imply that. I'm very much enjoying their relationship as is, because although it’s arguably a cliche romance, that doesn’t make it any less enjoyable for me to watch because the actors are charming and winning together, and seeing their relationship unfold is fun and makes me happy.

Hi! Interesting comments all around. I want, however, to approach it from a different perspective: the on air chemistry. Both actors really hit off well, whether Mon-El is selfish or whatever. I laugh at their give and take banter and I think he is a great addition to the cast. He remind me of Tracey and Hepburn (you can google that), Willis and Shepherd in Moonlighting. These two - Kara and Mon-El,are following a fine traditional of comedic and romantic repartee. So I am enjoying that.

Let's face it, Mon-El is a pre-feminist male and is trying to learn. Kara deserves a fulfilling relationship, but that does not mean she is weak. Remember, she showed up Mon-El with Mixy. In the end my view is I enjoy the comedic aspects of their relationship. The sole question is it too soon for them to go full boar and does it detract. I do not know. I just hope the EPs don't screw this up by turning it into a tragedy or treacle.

Argo

Part IV (this time, I promise it's the last part).

So, what can be done to make Mon El better? (Here, i am assuming that Kara-Mon El is something the show is actually promoting. If their end game is something else, then all this changes).

I am not too sure people who see racism (which is very difficult not to see) or indifference to gay folks or chauvinism in his promotion will be touched by anything much, but well, let us see.

Since until Episode 17 is already a done deal and probably scripts for the rest are really done too, my hope is for season 3?

Show us how he has improved. Show him actually going to the support and protection of not Kara but other people... People he has not selfish interest in protecting. Like the random homeless guy in Episode 6. And in the absence of Kara and without prodding from anyone. This is important. What he does with Kara, to protect Kara, doesn't count because well, see above.

Oh and not Alex either because Alex has been de-powered enough this season. It will only come across as Mon El showing up and proving that Alex is incapable of taking care of herself. It'd be propping up Mon El at the expense of Alex so-to-speak. (As Winn did in S2E2, when he had to tell Alex that Kryptonite emits radiation despite the fact that Alex is a scientist (yeah, I know geneticist, but geneticists should know chemistry and she knows a lot about Kara) and has been working with Kryptonite for much longer than Winn and in season 1 has been shown to know quite a bit about chemistry and technology too.)

Show him struggling and actually working on it. But, not while taking centre stage shuttling all the other members of this group, whom a lot of people identify with to the periphery.

Oh and with Kara: Support her. Show her that he trusts her. Make her feel good about herself. Show that she inspires him.

I am not saying you shouldn't critique the people whom you love. But, there is a method to it.

Look at how Alex did it in Episode 5, where she showed Kara that Kara was wrong in expecting Mon El to be just like her.

Look at how J'onn did it in Medusa (finally, one episode the name of which I remember), where he said "Your parents' legacy is not death and destruction Kara Zor-El. It's you.".

Look at how Kal did it in the first episode where he says that she has to work hard to achieve all her goals of being a good career person, a good girlfriend, a good superhero and so on.

Harshness may achieve results. But, I consider Kindness and faith to be more efficient and effective in the long run.

Oh, and make Mon El interact with the other folks. Alex, J'onn, James and Winn for more than a minute. With respect and show him caring for them and standing up for them to. Make him an integral part of the group and not just of Kara's life. (And this, latest I believe works for Maggie too).

This might make him and his scenes bearable and may be, at some point in time, enjoyable. (People, everyone, would react positively to kindness, struggle, persistence, and friendliness). Even if they will have their fanon ships and will have their legitimate concerns about this character.

Part III (and hopefully, the last part).
(Ugh! Not the last part either. There would be one more part.)

Because I don't see Flash, I will continue with the Mon El thing.

How likely are you to like or date a woman who comes into your field and team and starts questioning your ability to do your job? Not in an intrepid, you are actually doing something wrong and she is pointing it out despite odds being against her way, but in an I know better than you, I don't trust you to do your job well kind of way. Not once, but all the times you have been out on the job together. Consistently disobeys you as a team-lead/captain whatever, consistently endangers other folks because of that, and then, goes ahead and tries to break the one cardinal rule you have in place for your job.

I don't know about men. But to many a woman (not all clearly as evidenced by this site), his actions call back to their own experience in a science/management/engineering/technical field where despite having double the experience, this new guy on the block keeps questioning them, keep disobeying them, and keeps making them doubt themselves. (Especially after having grown up in a culture where the society itself has been telling them that men are genetically better at their jobs than they are).

Yes, he apologises each time. And a lot of folks take this apology as character growth. I am not sure why. As long as he doesn't act according to his promises, how is his apology character growth?

From the time when the two of them go off into Slaver's Moon, he has been disobeying her directions. Not once has he actually supported her in a positive manner on the field. (I don't count the soda drinking or telling Eve about Kara).

All of his scenes have been with Kara; so we haven't even been shown (since E7) whether his reactions are truly altruistic because he has a really selfish reason for trying to protect Kara. Not to mention quite misogynistic considering he doesn't think she can take care of herself.

Yes, I do know about Daxam--although, all the show has ever told us is what Kara shares and her opinion is skewed considering her planet considered Daxamites their enemies. So, I will take her opinion with a pinch of salt.

And yet Kara decides to date him. Why is that?

I do hear you when you say he is still learning and people should give him a chance.

But, in this, aren't you seeing only from his point of view? What about the women's point of view (I don't want to speak of Kara here because she has made her choice)? If he has proven himself to have actually changed, then, she can give him a chance. But, before that, based on promises, that he has consistently broken, or good intentions that he has not lived up to?

In real life, how many of these lead to abusive relationships where the woman expects the man to change and the man keeps cashing in on, with very good intentions, the woman's hopefulness? (There is this proverb about the way to Hell and its paving, I think). Or really, viceversa?

Oh... and then, he goes ahead and says, "You are my kryptonite." (Which is absurd because Kryptonite is not poisonous to him; lead is.). "You cause all these feelings in me and I do all these stupid things because of that."

Is love a weakness or a strength?

I consider love a strength, an inspiration. It is love that makes you want to do for someone else or something else. It's live that makes me want to go to my native place a week in advance of a function (despite the fact that i hate crowds and travelling there) so that I can help my aunt with all the preparation (so that she and my mother don't have to do it all by themselves). It's love that makes me want to clean up all the plastic waste in my area so that the environment remains clean.

Love expands your heart and your consciousness. It doesn't diminish you. It makes you grow. (I am speaking of all sorts of love here, not just the romantic kind).

Fear on the other hand can both be a weakness and a strength.

When it is managed, it can ensure your survival. But, when it is an irrational fear of loss, it can lead to violence, and much pain.

In Mon El's case, all his mistakes are owed to his fear not his love. That is his character trait, nothing to do with Kara. He is scared that he will lose Kara to violence and he doesn't trust her abilities to take care of herself (despite her being stronger than him), so he consistently go against her wishes. And, he is scared that she will actually like Mr Mxy (oh because he has the power to actually give her roses and change reality and all that stuff; more power than him basically) and he doesn't trust her judgement or her fidelity (considering she was just about to kiss him before Mr Mxy showed up on scene) enough to listen to her when she says she will take care of it. And no, not knowing Kara is no excuse because he has been here long enough to know that Kara has honor (even if he doesn't trust her judgement).

And yet, after doing all this for the past 4-5 episodes, he comes and says at the end of the episode, that it's she who is her weakness and making him lose his control. Not his weakness/cultural baggage/lack of control/lack of trust in her/insecurities or his inability to deal with stuff, but his feelings for her.

Are there people who like being someone's weakness rather than being someone's strength, their inspiration, their muse?

How does it feel to a decent person to hear that they are bringing someone down? (Kara was willing to go to Metropolis because she thought she was an obligation on Alex; it was a mistake that Alex made once... rather stupid one.. and she corrected it at the end of the episode by saying, I feel better when we are together. Kids feel bad when parents tell them that they have sacrificed a lot for them. They would rather parents feel pride than loss.)

I believe it is quite a common trope used especially in action/cop/superhero genre; this one guy whose one weakness is his love interest or whatever, but it is not a healthy idea to promote. Being someone's weakness is codependency. Being someone's strength is love.

And yet, the show and Mon El used that. And apparently, Kara has no issues with it because well, she kisses him.

In short: She is kissing a guy who has repeatedly questioned her ability to do her job, has shown that he doesn't trust her capabilities or her judgement, and who considers her his weakness. All based on the good intentions that he has yet to actually act on.

How's that a good romance? Or at least, to a lot of people, it isn't. And, that is why they are protesting.

I didn't make the Flash parallel to say that the two characters are similar but to say the fact the people react to relationships concerning different genders differently. Anyhow if our views are overly divergent then maybe it'll be long before any kind of agreement. We could call it here, respect the differences, and end the discussion as friends.

Okay... so Barry and Iris... I don't watch Flash, so I don't know much about their romance.

However, from what I know, it seems an odd comparison to make.

Iris has been a character in the show since season 1, Barry has known her and has had a crush on her since he was very young, and it is the third season. Quite different, it appears to me from Mon-El, who just appeared on the scene and within a few episodes was made clear to be Kara's potential romantic interest (so to speak).

I don't think people are saying here that Kara should never have a romance or date a man. Most people expect her to find someone (a guy in canon) and date him and fall for him eventually. (Though the way Supergirl is going, I think she will have had at least fourteen suitors by the end of seven seasons--two per season, one rejected and one accepted. Nothing wrong with that in real life. In reel life, it gets a bit tiresome.).

Besides, there is the fact of Mon El himself.

Is Mon El really like Iris?

See... I like him. Not because I think he is an interesting character--because heavens, his story is something I have seen a number of times--but because Chris Wood plays him so well. And yes, he does have the best comic lines this season.

You consider him a well-written character. However, I think that a lot of what viewers see in him is filling out the colours on their own (extrapolation from the little we have seen). There is nothing wrong with it; people engage with the character as they will. But, I think there has barely been any actual character development especially after the folks at the show made it clear that he is crushing on Kara. Hence, folks who see the worst in white male domination, or entitlement or sexism or whatever see the worst in him. And folks who see the best in him because of Chris Wood's acting or because they identify with whatever they have seen of him, or they remember this story from elsewhere and it's a cool story (I am not referring to comic book Mon El here; but about the fact that we have had a lot of stories about playboys growing up and try to be better).

Before E7 (i think it is the one where he gets that bullet), or whichever that episode is, he does show some interesting character growth. He is shaken by what happened to Kara with the parasite and is prodded enough by Alex to try and fight parasite. And at the end of that episode is the most touching scene I have seen him in. He tries to help a homeless guy; and in this, he is referring back to his learning from Kara and Alex. To try to help selflessly.

And yes, at the beginning of the next episode, he gives in during his flight because he sees J'onn captured.

But ugh! The show had to spoil these two moments by the kidnapping and then getting him to fall for Kara.

That crushing scene at the end of E7 kind of writes all over these two moments in people's minds. Because just like the folks who love him and see the chemistry, those who don't see where this is going. And, they don't like it because they have seen this a lot before. (It's most definitely not the actor they hate. It's not even the character itself but this idea that has been played out so many times in popular consciousness, almost always from a male POV and always with the Man winning the woman's heart.)

After that (after coming back, I mean), what you have is the worst of Mon El. It is almost as if Mon El has forgotten all those decent impulses that he found within himself.

Tell me this, does Iris constantly tell Barry or show to Barry that she doesn't trust his abilities in his field of expertise?

Does she constantly refuse to heed his directions or advice despite being completely novice to the field and to the entire environment?

Does she, while being charming at most times, also consistently, when Barry needs her support the most, hurt his spirit by saying that a. "He is too full of himself" b. "That he shouldn't be risking his life to save others", c. "He doesn't know what he is doing" and d. "That he is her weakness and is the reason why she makes bad choices"? (And oh, is she a thorough jerk to his ex too? That interaction in Guardian that was definitely not innocent. Mon El, knew James liked (may be still likes) Kara and was irritating because of that.)

If Iris is like that, then Barry is definitely better off without her. And I am really surprised that there are people who are against Mon El for these same reasons but have no qualms supporting Iris.

Once again continuing on the next post because this is getting too long. (It's a good thing I am not a teacher. I'd never stop talking and the students would have nodded off by now.)

[Full disclosure also: I don't ship anyone in particular but I do gravitate towards supporting whatever is canon over scenarios imagined by fans but deemed unlikely. I like Mon-El as a character, but for the same reason I like HR on The Flash or Nate Heywood on Legends, that they're smart, funny and interesting, not because any allegiance to a shipping fandom.]

Fair enough. But surely reasoning aside you do agree that having a relationship does not in fact make her any less heroic, whether or not being single is fine or not. That was kinda my point lol because I wrote that to counter people who believe having a relationship ruined the show and her important somehow.

Okay.. So I think you guys are probably sick and tired of my posts by now, and would be minded to just ignore it; but I saw this post and I think I'd give it a shot anyways. At worst, all of you can think I am that oddball that disagrees with most here on this thing (and probably most things).

The feminist folks point is not that being in a romance weakens Kara because, well, that'd be a weird argument to make. Someone's companionship and support as long as that someone is great does not weaken* folks (and I'll come back to the starred point later). No, what they are objecting to is the suggestion that Kara is alone and weak without romance because, well, quite frankly, the show has been pushing that loneliness and how it's related to her lack of romance and Mon El these past few episodes.

I made this point of being DC being romance-centric elsewhere and was told by people there that that is how world is. Everyone is better with romance in their lives. So, I don't think what I say will make sense to folks here either. But, there is this view in the general culture everywhere, including in my country, that you have an OTP and you have to find that person to be truly fulfilled in your life. It applies to all folks, not just women. This message is sent down to folks as young as teens, so from teens onward, everyone is trying to find their Mr, Ms. Or Pan perfect because, well, the stories and culture say that that is what you have to do to be happy.

It creates, in my opinion, a lot of peer pressure among people. Especially young people, but in older folks too. You feel that if you don't have romance in your life, or a girlfriend, a boyfriend, a romantic partner so-to-speak, you are a loser.

I don't think that is appreciating love because love should be about two people just loving each other without the pressures and expectations of society on them. Feeling free to love, feeling free to join, feeling free to share if they want to, and not, if they don't want to. However, that is not how it's perceived.

There is not much freedom in dating or finding someone to romance. There is an obligation. A feeling of worthiness or not.

I think this applies to both men and women and everyone would benefit from showing single people being happy at least for a while.

However, men do get their single hero, brotps quite a lot more than women (as far as I have seen). You have cop shows with guys as partners; you have movies where a band of brothers save stuff and the world. Women have it much less, and the singledom is not quite as celebrated for girls and women. So, when you see yet another woman being tangled up in a romance after the show promising that this would not be the case... well, you have people shouting not fair. (Niche shows break this standard I think, but well, niche shows are niche; and people find superhero shows attractive for a reason.)

Especially with all the other things that I talked about earlier such as James and Lena and POC and gay folks and all.

[Fair disclosure though: My experience of my own country's and state's movies colour my judgement. I have seen literally hundreds of movies where men save the day, where you have men soul-mates (platonic) and where the women's only point, even in the movie/show that is supposed to be about her is to fall in love. (In our case, it is also about being a good daughter-in-law, a good mother and so on. Recently, I heard an RJ ask this question in an afternoon show: "Who in this city do you think is a superwoman. As in, who do you think is the best daughter, best mother, best wife?". With men, it is how well they do their jobs. With women it is how will they perform their relationships. How others rate them basically. I am not too sure that is the whole case in US though. But, from watching action and Superhero movies, quite a bit is true.]

In any case, as far as me personally is concerned, I think it'd be good both for men and women.

So, that is your first point.

I don't want to say anything about Kara-Lena because that is a ship thing and shippers see what shippers see and like and promote what they like. It's their thing; quite as much as people who like Mon El and ship Kara-Mon El. The fact that one is canon and the other is fanon doesn't change that.

About Barry and Iris... well, I think I will make another post because this has gotten long (and to think I was positive that this would be short!)