Should shows have political overtones

the original Twilight Zone was hugely colonized with politics, by design, Rod Serling decided it was easier to do "difficult material" thru the medium of witches, martians and time travel. The original Star Trek had a definite political profile and in more recent times "Babylon Five"....even "Xena the Warrior Princess" had something of an agenda. I would argue that the more successful sci-fi fantasy shows in the USA tend to have a sort of agenda going on....

JF

Okay... So, I am left-leaning and I am pretty sure most of my values would be left of US Democratic Party.

And, I also think it is quite okay and natural for a people who create TV shows (or any art form) to bring their own values to the shows. (Why are values considered political, anyways? They are more than that).

However, I don't think this show has done a good job of it.

I don't mean making Alex gay or having a black Love Interest for the lead (Kara in S1 or Flash throughout?); because I don't consider these political statements. They are just a reflection of society; you have gay folks in the world; you have black folks. And both gay relationships and inter-cultural or inter-racial love can happen (it does, doesn't it? I am not really sure since shows show so little of that, but I am thinking it'd only be natural to have it).

The rather weird mention of climate change (that ended up portraying the climate scientist as the villain whatever the politics of showrunners and writers are), Nasty Woman, Make Daxam Great Again (I missed Rhea saying that) etc. however feel either like cheap shortcuts that the writers to use to act out their emotions (valid, I think; I have them too, but cheap because shortcuts) while cashing out on the political fame these have instead of actually exploring the real issues.

This show is telecast in many countries. How many people would understand or relate to that line about Nasty Women? What are you achieving with it? Nothing other than make a few people feel good and validated at the cost of making a few other people feel mad.

Instead, if you were to subtly explore the idea of different expectations that you have from people who are of different genders or even different backgrounds; if you were just to play with expectations in general and how to break them, and how Kara deals with it, I think that would have been a much better story and would have much larger reach; through the ages, through the sexes and through geographies. (They tried the gender thing in Season 1, but again, I thought it was very sledge hammer). And showing women in powerful positions, winning, would be a breaking gender stereotypes in itself.

Similarly, the story of someone from a different culture trying to fit in, the classic immigration story of how you feel part of both worlds at times, and feel as if you belong nowhere at others, that feeling of torn between two worlds, if only they had explored that evenly (they do sometimes remember this, but not consistently), then again, they would have had a winner.

And a story of extinction of species or clogging up of reservoirs where Supergirl helps out would have done more to shine a light on environment than what the show did with it. I think Season 1 in fact did a better job of that with the whole Astra and blowing up of Krypton due to indiscriminate exploitation of natural resources.

I don't think stories or TV are shallow. Or at least, they can be more than shallow. They can make real changes; affect people in real and positive ways (or at times, negative ways too unfortunately). Make some folks feel better about themselves, which in itself is a big deal. You just have to look at how gay women and teens have reacted to the Sanvers* storyline to see this. (What is that quote? Something along the lines of "Not seeing a reflection makes you feel like monsters."

And stories can be an exploration of difficult topics while still being entertaining.

After all, it is stories that we have heard since we were children that affect how we view the world.

However, I do think Supergirl bungled in how they explored their values. They took shortcuts just as they have been doing with a lot of other stuff and character arcs. The shows don't look like propaganda to me or even pushing political viewpoints; but rather as ways in which the writers used current climate in US to include one liners for either inside jokes or applause (I am not sure which). I don't think they were wrong (it's after all their show). I do think they were immature and consistently underestimate their audience. Or, so it seems to me.

*(I know, I don't much like that storyline or Kara's romance. But most of that is for personal and selfish reasons. I prefer platonic and familial relationships over romance and I love Kara and Alex and feel they have been ignored this season; along with Kara's friendship with Winn and James. However, I do know that it has had a positive impact on a lot of folks and I am grateful for that).

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I just get riled up sometimes when people bring in nazi imagery to talk about things like a tv show, implying, this is so serious, we all should take action and then it turns out the action they mean is ... about a tv show? But I see you mean it about the writers, not us fans. Even if there might be an underlying thread of "if the nazis are basically next door, how can you object to the writers using the tv show to state their opinions".

I do think that even writers should rethink whether using their tv shows to "speak out" is the best way. TV shows are such an arbitrary thing, they air in a lot of countries, they air in reruns. So if you say something too topical and concrete in them, you should consider whether the same thing will still make sense if you watch them years later.

There has been good political art, but I think particularly tv shows and how they are made usually aren't the best example.

A different subject to me are shows that are intentionally about political topics. Whether straight up (like The West Wing) or sort of under the covers (like The Wire). I think as a whole tv shows are better when they create their own self containing universe. They can still be about things like overcoming oppression or fighting prejudice.

I think interesting debates can be had about whether it is cowardly to use metaphor (they are oppressed because they have superpowers rather than they are being oppressed because they are gay). But I think most tv shows take shortcuts. Usually out of necessity, because it's not easy to make a tv show, you can't cram in everything. If you make a movie about real issues or real people, then realism has a different priority. I also think that tv shows are usually better if they have fleshed out villains and more complex scenarios (of course, it depends on the type of the tv show).

I think artistically it would be pretty boring if all tv shows decided to go for the same path of either doing real life politics or nobody doing real life politics. But I think tv shows also have to think what is right for their show, for example based on the level of realism in the show, whether you should go for current events, real life issues, abstracted issues.

For the record, I think what shows like Smallville or Flash or some comics have been doing, by recasting some characters as other ethnicities is a very interesting artistic experiment. I don't necessarily always see that as pushing an agenda, but asking us as consumers what we really care about. Everybody likes the cute "in love since they were children"/"highschool sweethearts" story, would you still like it if the girl was black or half asian? Does her race matter or do the emotions matter or what she means to the hero? What makes a hero? Is it his power, like for example in Green Lantern? Then why does his race matter? Is it his story, his character, the underdog who gets picked on and finds out he has superpowers, the rich, successful dick who grows a conscience, would you still relate to that story if the guy was hispanic? Why, why not?

TV shows are pretty formulaic. They have certain stock character. "The love interest". "The nerd". "The best friend". I can see artistic merit in playing around with the ethnicities or the genders of these archetypes. Even if it was just that it gets boring if its the same all the time.

Please friend, calm a little.

By the way, just because some talk about a TV show right now, does not mean they don't do anything in reality. And no one is fighting a political battle on the forum of this site. I just asked whether this show should be so political. I've stated where I stand on politics to give a clearer view of my take on this particular question, and some others have done the same, but no one has actually argued politics here. I'd know, because normally I get swarmed as soon as I say I'm socialist, if this was political debate.

And you might have misread what brierrose said.

What does speaking out have to do with a tv show? People should speak out, they should get involved in real life politics. By voting, by going to rallies, by becoming politicians themselves in the real and now.

I'm kinda sick of people who act like they are being political when the only thing they do is watch a political tv show.When people spend more time fighting about the characters on a tv show rather than going out and fight the real fight, that always seems embarrassing to me.

TV shows are ersatz activity. You have this people who start like petitions and twitter hashtags on tv shows then they could use the same energy to promote a ballot issue or regional election. But people don't do that, because that's not cool and easy. Real life politics are messy, that's why people run to tv shows and rather argue over fake issues.

And there is nothing wrong with preferring fake issues over real issues as long as people are honest about that being what they are doing. And don't pretend that by fighting these fake issues, they have done their job, that that is more important than caring about real issues. No, people prefer fake issues, because they are clear and easy with clear badguys and you don't have to interact with real people who might have a different opinion for concrete real life reasons. If somebody is genuinely concerned about them coming for you, they should be out there protesting and being an active voter.

People like to construct tv shows at this fake fight, but they don't want to get involved in real, messy politics. Because real life is hard. Arguing about which fictional characters make out on tv hasn't stopped a guy who many people don't like from being elected. This is the real fight people could be fighting. People pat themselves on the back and act like liking a facebook post or tweeting a progressive thing makes them political. It doesn't. Going out and getting elected, or handing out pamphlets and voting and helping people run campaigns, that is what makes you political. People like to live in this fantasy world of perfect, good characters where if you just whine enough to the god of the fictional universe you get what you want. And that is more fun than living in the real world where real people get harmed and have real problems and creating a hashtag campaign for god doesn't actually make the world better. Real life is hard and messy and not as glossy and fun. Pretending that watching a progressive tv show and rooting for progressive couple is some great feat of resistance while around you people vote for bullshit ballot issues that you don't want to think about because real life politics makes ones brain hurt is just self deluding.

I like tv shows and movies and comics. But I'm fully aware that any time and money I'm spending on them is time and money I'm not spending supporting my local politicians and reforming the party I would like to vote for. Fighting over political ground in fake battle fields like tv shows or message boards is just bullshit. People making themselves feel important and like they are being righteous, while real life harm happens under their noses while they are busy complaining about who gets how much screentime.

Don't get me wrong, I like debating fake issues like Star Trek politics or culpability of characters under mind control or without a soul or from an alien planet. But at least I know it's bullshit and shallow entertainment, no better or worse than let's say bowling. And I'm afraid that there are many people who genuinely think that what they are doing is genuine meaningful political activism. It isn't. It's shallow bullshit and running away from the real world because real life has complicated issues and fewer hot righteous people.

As for the writers, from their POV, I think they have to ask themselves, what is this supposed to be? Entertainment? Art? Propaganda?

I have started and stopped writing to this thread a few times. I finally decided to keep it simple with a favorite quote by Pastor Martin Niemollor.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak for me.

If we don't speak up when others are being harmed who will be left to speak for us.
Edit I am active go to rally's attend local and state government meetings. I meant if the writers feel they should speak out.

I think good stories can come from politics. Politics are just part of life. For example, one of my favorite tv shows was Deep Space Nine and some episodes were obviously going for political and historical parallels.

So when they started out this season with aliens being used as a metaphor of immigration, I didn't mind. I think they actually did less with it than they could have. (themes like, okay in an immigration group do some bad apples make everybody look bad, what do you do when people who are also criminals are coming, how much do you fit in or try to fit in, what conflict is there between people who can blend in and those who can't blend in, those are just conflicts that real people have, so why wouldn't it be interesting to have stories about it? same thing with Deep Space Nine and stories about a small country with an unique religion trying to preserve independence while being surrounded by hostile powers, how do you deal with your former oppressors after a violent occupation, how do you deal with former collaborators)

To me those political or historical metaphor storylines are preferable to stories or scenes that directly comment real life politics, simply because they age better. For example, I think Supergirl having to deal with hostile media, with like their version of Fox News or Bill O'Reilly would be an interesting conflict, as long as they set up their own version for it, rather than expecting everybody to get the reference.

I think She Persisted is a good name and if it's gonna reference things that happen in the episode then I don't think that it will age well. If you look at this 5 or 10 years from now you will just think "cool title" without realizing what it references. While something like the make daxam great again joke might sound out of place without the immediate context.

It's possible (likely?) I'm just blind to it, but what about this show exactly do people find "political"? Sure, season 1 was heavy on the feminism, season 2 was/is heavy on Sanvers, and there were some not-so-subtle jabs at Trump in Welcome to Earth, but what else?

Argo, RobertAnthony?? CURSE YOU....Course you BOTH! I've now got this stuck in my head. For the record, I was age 5 when it came out. But I remember it well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX0cSaaLcXo

Robert Anthony, thank you for raising some interesting points. Unfortunately, I remember many of those shows referenced and I saw them when they were first broadcast. (I want to think I am still 25.) You are correct about them. The big argument you and I can have is about those Yankees. I say go Mets!!!! Perhaps we can have a rational discussion about those teams.

Thank you,

Argo

I just don't want shows to be turned into US Democratic Party (or other party) advertisements.

Fed, the first part would apply to about 97% of the shows on TV these days promoting some form of a New World Order globalist anti-freedom propaganda and these shows I avoid like Quantico, Designated Survivor, Homeland and Madam Secretary to name a few.

One of the shows that sort of breaks that rule is Tim Allen's Last Man Standing, a big Friday night comedy hit for ABC. The show goes after the left/Democrats and yet I do not hear about many people complaining, unless they are trained to do so by their spiteful professors in college and troll message boards.

Don't watch much TV except for the CW comic shows and any sports that might be on (baseball for this time of year...Yankees for me). And ESPN has gotten political...and aside from the way TV is obtained, it has cost them viewers, millions of dollars and even 100 people had to be laid off.

I grew up in a time without so many cable channels and all the streaming options and things were a little less politically charged. When I speak of comedy I speak of people like Bob Hope and Johnny Carson, two of my idols who went after both parties regardless of who was in the White House and it was done tongue in cheek. When I listen to Bob Hope's radio program on CD I hear those political references and think not much of it because it's part of the nation's history and pop culture. And they weren't meant to force the issue. It was done...FOR LAUGHS.

On LGBT, lots of people 40 years ago were up in arms when Billy Crystal played Jody on Soap, TV's first gay character. Also at the time Three's Company came on where John Ritter (RIP) played Jack Tripper, a man who had to lie about being homosexual so he can stay in the apartment. Both shows I don't think forced the issue. Again, they played for laughs. Then along came Ellen DeGeneres and her coming out which to me changed the game.

Now as an Independent, libertarian, conservative, I do not care if someone is gay. But if you try to force the issue, there's going to be trouble.

We are who we are and we live our lives as we see fit; not to let others in on it.

On Supergirl, the political things were one of the reasons I think this season has been a disappointment for me. Also the focus on relationships outside of Kara and Alex has been detrimental. After the first two episodes, the show began to slip into an abyss. Though shows like Mr and Mrs Mxy, Supergirl Lives, Alex and the first two eps this season focused on adventure and fun and worked for me. Welcome to Earth was far too politically charged regarding immigration. Then I thought, who would believe Supergirl who is from a dead planet would try to harm earth?

To me the showrunners are part of Hollywood's temper tantrum over last Nov. And as far as I go it is petty, childish and must stop. They are whether they know it or not feeding some of the anti-American garbage from groups paid by elites. Memo to Hollywood, watching CNN or reading the NY Times DOES NOT turn you into an expert on everything overnight.

For next season, turn down the politics (not to zero, but a touch here and there) and the soap opera romance, refocus on Alex and Kara as career women. I get too much politics as it is from the corporate news media. Heck I don't even watch that much Fox News Channel either!

Fedguy and evrafter - I appreciate your thoughts. The theocracy I lived in was in the Middle-East, the Dictatorship was in Asia. I must admit that i never caught the "make Daxim great again", reference. Nonetheless our discussing here and being of different opinions is a very positive experience. I hope we can continue to be open and respectful as here. BTW, my Great Uncle founded the Anarchist Party in Italy and died fighting the Fascists. They observed the 75th anniversary of his death last year. I was born later, but grew up hearing very pointedly how they and the Germans killed people.

I think the point is whether you agree or disagree, we all enjoy the right of Free Speech. Perhaps the EPs are pushing their views or perhaps are taking advantage of current events to draw in smart rejoinders such as "fake news." I do not pretend to know their thoughts. The important fact is that I still enjoy the show, and yes there are plots, writing, etc. that i do not like. But I am a fan, and I do not think there are any fans that are completely satisfied with their favorite bands, shows, etc.

Thank you all for your wonderful thoughts. It is a learning experience.

Argo

Well, I did post my thoughts then had a second to read everyone else's thoughts....I think I'll just delete and back out slowly.

Admittedly being a socialist I have a small amount of objections to the interpretation of progressive politics by liberals as often expressed in media, but then again I do agree with 90% of the sentiment SG expressed, just that it really isn't subtle at all, and as someone said, doing it like TWD by presenting an egalitarian scenario without declaring it seems to be more effective.

But yeah, thanks all for the input and I really still am not sure what to exactly think on this, as many here on either side raised good points.

Oh and Argo, can't begin in imagine your loss. I've certain family who's been exiled during the Japanese invasion and killed during the Cultural Revolution, but I've never known them. Any how, very sorry for what happened to you. Fingers crossed history won't repeat.

"What Snapper said was accurate. Mussolini was a journalist and Hitler used the Beobachter as his mouthpiece." Legit argument, there Argo. And if that is truly what the EP's meant, I'm totally down. It sparked my concern because it was the next episode, or shortly thereafter the Rhea comment "Make Daxim great again," and because, as you pointed out "fascist" has been thrown around quite a bit these days. But, I will most definitely side with your argument. You've been there. Done that. I can't even begin to imagine the things you have seen.

And thank you, Admin, again for all of your time and energy.

Romulus and Fedguy, thank you for your insights. I'm always looking to improve, and part of that is "hearing out" the "other side."

Just wanted to thank you guys for this thread. I am not going to weigh in on the topic but I wanted to point to how civil and well written everyone's comments are. No arguing here just thoughtful exploration of a very tough topic. I really appreciate all of your grace in discussing the issue.

All, I appreciate your comments. I am a hardline centrist who can be liberal on some issues and conservative on others. The problem we all face today is a tendency to cloister our selves around like minded people. I want to be able to discus issues with different people, so that I may learn, understand, and respect those opinions.
You all raised the points of past programs addressing social issues of the day. While I can see Supergirl doing that, I am not always comfortable. I was not keen on turning Alex into a lesbian. It is not that I am anti-gay, rather it reinforced a stereotype: biker chick, short hair cut, jean, boots, etc. I have become more accepting of this, as time has passed because it has been handled respectfully and is not appearing to be an overriding subplot.

As mentioned, the internet abounds with many arguments and using words such as racists, abusive, Fascist. These are powerful words and are too often thrown about casually. Misusuing them diminishes their power and impact.

My family was exiled and killed by Fascists. What Snapper said was accurate. Mussolini was a journalist and Hitler used the Beobachter as his mouthpiece. I have lived in dictatorships and theocracies. We have people of that bent here in this country, as well as in any other nation. Again what we need to dos to communicate with each other. Understanding a position does not mean I will agree with it.

Some people are upset by the final episode's title: "Nevertheless she persisted." I believe it appropriate within the context of what will occur. Mitch McConnell may have used it to quiet Elizabeth Warren, but it is IMO as phrase belonging to all women. When Anne Coulter was denied speaking at UC Berkley, Nevertheless she persisted. It is not the property of one group, but of many.

So here is my epistle. Let's continue to communicate with each other. We will only enrich ourselves by doing so.

Argo

Well written, Romulus. And much of what you said I can agree with.

"The fact that it appears to gravitate to the left is more in line with social patterns and lines of thought.." That right there is the issue. Perhaps that's how it is in New York, California, Oregon ...more liberal leaning areas. But, that's not how it is everywhere. What the show is doing wrong, isn't that it shines a light on issues. It shows one side as good, the other side as almost "evil." Example: Evil Rhea saying, "Help make Daxim 'great again.'" Or Snapper's lesson on good journalism, stating a bad journalist is one step away to putting a "fascist" into the oval office. Thus, they are not simply shining a light on current discourse. They are taking stabs at conservatives from a very left leaning stance....not caring that half of their viewers/supporters/die hard fan base are conservative.

All of the shows you mentioned--Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Buffy--huge fan of all of them. As a viewer, never felt attacked, judged. I would thus say, there was something they did right, that perhaps Supergirl is struggling with.

"As Andrew Kreisberg stated in one of his interviews, they (the EPs), don't go out of their way to be political and attempt to sway viewers one way or another, but it unfortunately appears that way because of the external state of things in the world." Here's the only problem with that statement, which by the way, I wish was absolutely true. I stated this on the "news page," and that's when the admin had to put a halt to the convo (because a few were getting overly heated lol)....when you read the tweets from some of the actors, writers, and even some of the directors....the dialogue in the show sounds just like their tweets--divisive (minus the foul language lol). Thus why I've said before, the show is simply becoming their mouthpiece to rant on a larger scale.

The episode they got it right? When President Marsden brought up the issue of amnesty. I felt the EP's did a good job presenting both "sides" of the issues fairly. They showed that, yes we are a nation of immigrants. But, that perhaps there ARE issues to take a closer look at, rather than simply labeling someone a xenophobe. Kara even used that term in the episode. But rather than allowing Kara's comment to go unchallenged, they brought in an equally strong argument from the conservative side.

Here's my hope....perhaps by the time Season 3 rolls around, further away from the election and with perhaps the nation coming back together, the show will be able to reflect more of that unity. Never stop shining a light on things we need to address; but, perhaps done in a way that's not so overt or leaning.

Thank you, Romulus, for your answer to this question. As a left-leaning centrist from the USA, I agree with everything you've said. I was ready this morning to add a response of my own, but you beat me to it and it's a good thing because you said it so much better and with more restraint than I could have mustered. Well done!

To answer the question posed; yes.

The thing everyone has to keep in mind is that despite the show's very progressive overtones, it is striking (very hard) a balance for people who have traditionally been under-represented (i.e. women, minorities and orientation communities). The fact that it appears to gravitate to the left is more in line with social patterns and lines of thought. It also helps if the EPs and writers, by and large, are from said communities and set the tone and direction for the series.

Admittedly and rightfully so, some may not agree with the tone and direction the show is taking, but the efforts to address social discrepancies should be applauded. Otherwise, TV and movies would never change and we'd be all be perpetually watching Westerns, repetitive sit-coms, hyper-masculine action-adventures, mindless game shows or state/national, media-driven propaganda. Which, by the way (other than for currently out-of-favour Westerns), is the actual state of things.

The real reason the show is sticking out like a sore thumb socially/politically, so to speak, is due to the currently toxic nature of discourse or lack thereof of constructive discussion in the United States between the fringes (far right and far left). The 95% of non-political "silent majority" viewers haven't stood up and basically told both extreme sides to have a seat and behave. So, until that happens, the 5% will continue to dictate the uncivil, fact-free, disingenuous, and possibly dangerous direction of discourse.

Truth be told, far too often there are shows that are written by men, for men, and centre on overly-masculine subject matter. Shows that tend to go against the current (swim upstream instead of down), tend to meet a lot of resistance but are the ones that tend to be remembered for challenging the status-quo long after their TV airing days are done. Cases in point: Wonder Woman, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica (the more recent re-imagined version), Mary Tyler Moore, Xena, Buffy, Murphy Brown, Ally McBeal and a handful of others were deemed very progressive in their day, and whether by accident or design, were interpreted in a political manner. Nowadays, there is a stark chasm between both sides and this tends to expose the left/right divide acutely.

So, before anyone feels the need to pillory or horse-whip the EPs and writers for their personal or overtly stated political views, just remember, change doesn't happen in a vacuum. If you dislike the direction a show or social theme therein is taking, write to the PTB. As Andrew Kreisberg stated in one of his interviews, they (the EPs), don't go out of their way to be political and attempt to sway viewers one way or another, but it unfortunately appears that way because of the external state of things in the world. Many people apparently fly off the handle because they don't like what they see or hear or having direct challenges to their belief systems. We see this in religion, politics and everyday social interactions.

Also, please keep in mind, the reason that people are being put down for holding strong contrary views is because many of the debates that occur tend to degrade into mud-slinging matches. The Internet is littered with such flotsam and jetsam. This site, by contrast, for good or bad (depending on your p.o.v.), is more-or-less and exception. In a small way, it is an oasis in a sea of Internet insanity.

To be sure, we've had our share of bickering and entrenched ideas on these boards in the past and while everyone is entitled to their own views, there has to be a modicum of decorum when presenting a point of view. It is not the fact that a person holds a different point of view, it is how it is presented to the public. Disagreements are fine. In fact, they are encouraged, but the moment they become gang-ups or put-downs (us vs. them) is when the debate gets out of hand. This is why these debates sometime seem a tad stifling or off-putting or that one viewpoint appears to hold more sway than another.

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