Thoughts on Lena - NOT a like vs. hate thread.

I wouldn't sell Lena short on her capabilities of being a villain . If she is intelligent enough to create devices that coincidentally turn into weaponry, then her intelligence along with her Luthor background are attributes that also can make her a dangerous villain, if she focused in that direction. If they want me to believe that she actually could kill Edge, then I have to also believe that she could be evil. Her constant need of rescuing is just, in my opinion, inconsistent writing.

I don't necessarily think that Lena needs or should go evil, just throwing ideas out there. But, the writers are going to have to find something else besides using her fear of being evil (without every having any payout) and a newly formed relationship in order to give her character more substance. I like that she is friends with Kara and that she doesn't know about Kara being SG because it allows Kara to just be Kara. But, I would like more than that if she is going to remain a regular instead of re-occurring character on the show.

I think Lena serves an expanded purpose at this point. Originally, she was written as a shaded individual, leaving us to wonder whether she was good or bad. Now she is Kara’s friend as well as her boss. Like Cat Grant and other CEOs, Lena did not get there by being nice. From the business POV, she can be ruthless. On the other hand, outside the work place she can be a different person. I believe the writers have the opportunity to show that duality. They came close when Lena showed up with the pistol. I think they need to show that she is that tough businesswoman who can outsmart her competition and enemies. Morgan Edge provides the perfect foil in that Lena is dealing with an absolute villain. She should be able to take care of herself without crossing the line, while right at it’s borderline.

If anything, the friendship with Kara maintains both characters’ humanity. Kara needs friends outside of her identity who care for Kara being Kara. Winn was that until he learned she was Supergirl. Not that he is not a friend. I believe, however, Kara requires some friends that just love Kara. As she once said, and I paraphrase, Kara Danvers is who I am; Supergirl is what I do.

This year seems to be about Kara’s humanity as an underlying theme. Yes, she has her sister and other friends related to the DEO. Lena serves the purpose of being the Kara friend who sees her as totally human. I believe the writers need to beef up her role to add that broader dimension to Kara’s life.

Argo

i think if the writers play more on Lend's CEO side, they can buildup that gray aspect of her personality. It doesn't need to be straight villainy, but the corporate toughness, ruthlessness that reisde in senior executives. they all have it, but control it's use (at least the real good one). Let that side of Lena show - a Luthor in the corproate world. As she noted to Kara when she bought CATCO, she expected a rerun on investment. Let's see Lena apply that to Morgan Edge and other situations.

Argo

See, what I miss about Lena are the unreadable looks on her face mixed with Blake Neely's eerie "Lena Theme" like when she's sitting on her office couch and looks at the chess piece. Boom. Grey... Is she or is she not devious?

A well written grey character is layered... You love them when they're good (as we've seen of late), but then they do something slightly "bad," and it leaves the audience's going... "Oh snAP, what was THAT?!" Anne of Green Gables said it perfectly one time... "I wouldn't want to marry anybody who was wicked, but I think I'd like it if he COULD be wicked..."
Walking into Edge's office with a pistol wasn't bad...it was purely just... stupid... desperite... "easy." When it comes to Edge... I want to see her cold...calculating. And, in the end, I'm not saying I want her to go evil. But, I do want to, at least, see her actually fighting her inner demon, not just whine about her last name. I LOVE Katie McGrath. Give her layers to work with once they get past Reign.

And I'm still wanting to see Lena and Supergirl butting heads, with Kara figuring out how to handle it.

Exactly......that makes for a fantastic dynamic between 3 characters 2 of which are the same person.....how cool is that?

I'm not saying Lena is replacing Cat... or at least I don't mean to be. Its just that when I think back on Season 1 Cat was the only one who was somewhat close to Kara who did not know her secret.
In Season 3 Lena is the only one who does not know. If Lena finds out (and this is not saying I do or don't want her to) that means there is no one is Kara's immediate circle that does not know.
It just seams like that might be one of the purposes of her character and having her not know. To show how Kara deals with that dynamic, to have an "outside" to the circle of those who know but someone who is close to people in the circle. .

Lena is not Cat and, for me, I am thankful because I am not a big Cat Grant fan. But, that's a different topic. Lena seems to be a very kind person and treats Kara how a friend should be treated. But, at the moment, I don't find the character interesting. That doesn't mean that I don't like her though. I just want to be clear on that .

I think that Lena's character suffers from a similar problem as James' in that they both started off in the hole based on the way they were written in their introduction. Lena's character has been built by taking aspects from existing characters. From Winn, the writers took the best friend role and the 'my parent is a bad person so I am fearful that I might become bad, too' conflict. And James and Lena basically are the male and female versions of each other. Both have a moral drive to help people, both are humans who use a physical attribute (she intellect, him brawn) and put themselves in harms way to be a hero, both are best friends to a superhero, both run a major corporation, both are Kara's friend and now both are Kara's boss and are in a relationship - which is kind of apropos when you think about it

As a result of this chipping and borrowing from other characters to build another character, all three characters have become diluted and all three have difficulties building an arc with any strength because of it. But, that doesn't mean that it can't be done.

I would like to see Lena remain clueless on Kara's role as Supergirl. I think that is one thing that they can continue to build something around. It's really about the only thing unique that she has going for her at the moment. She has a great personality and they can also play on that. I also wouldn't mind her going evil in the future but, I would rather it not be by finding out who Kara is because I think that that is too shallow of a route to take for the character. I want more to it than that. The writers have plenty of time to come up with something that creates a real turn for her, if they go that route.

Having Lena be like a Cat Grant would be yet another character trait that her character takes from. My hope is that they find an arc for Lena that has some value and is unique to her.

I believe I was the one that coined the phrase... "fanon should never dictate canon"...so I'm with you as far as the fans should not dictate how a series should be written....however, in the case of Lena, I think she has been written too far down a path that could be moved into a Remmington type of character...I just don't see that happening. I see her transition being far more like her mothers, which we have already seen glimpses of all along. The device to tell if you are human or alien, her reaction to Supergirl asking about her mom. Some may say that was her acting like she was against Supergirl, but I didn't think that for a moment....that was an inner fight between her wanting to be a "hero", someone people could look up to....and the "Luthor blood" that runs through her veins. It just so happened that at that time, she went with Supergirl's directions of "Be your own hero.....". We need more times like that to be written....times where she and Supergirl butt heads on certain issues. I could definitely see the first one being how to handle Morgan Edge, and how to handle Sam/Reign. Both of those are perfect times to have us see the Luthor in her rise to the top....only to be pushed back down by words from Kara......leading to the day that she finds out who Kara is....THAT is a much more compelling storyline for Lena than a relationship with James.

Given how frequently Lena needs to be rescued, she would make a pretty ineffectual villain
But seriously, from what I've seen the thing that most defines Lena is her fear of becoming like her family. Her biggest fear is that she's some ticking time bomb that will become evil at any moment, just like Winn felt in season 1, and in contrast to Sam who actually was/is a ticking time bomb.

This is why Edge can get to her as much as he does, she's afraid that he's right. Look at s3e5 (Damage) from Lena's perspective, she had probably only just gotten over her guilt that she helped Rhea in the first place, and the guilt that she forced Kara's boyfriend to leave earth, but, she thinks, at least
I helped defeat Rhea in the end. Then baamm! Suddenly kids are showing up in the hospital with lead poisoning, lead poisoning caused by the lead bomb she created (well more like modified, but still), a weapon that would never have had to be used if Lena hadn't brought the Daxamites to earth in the first place. A weapon that also made it so Kara's boyfriend had to leave earth. She watched her best friend morn for over six months because of something she caused.
And what was it that caused Lena to fall down this slippery slope into villainy? She wanted to end world hunger! It simply didn't occur to Lena that someone might use the portal to do harm.
From Lena's point of view she tries desperately to be good but it keeps backfiring, she creates a portal to make it easier to transport food and medicine to where they are needed, and the Daxamites invade. She creates a weapon to defeat the Daxamites and she ends up poisoning children. She feels that it's a destiny she can't escape. (and when she finds out that Edge is the one behind it boy is she pissed)

I think this is also why she doesn't figure out that Kara is Supergirl. Like Lucy from the first season she doesn't want to see it, she doesn't want it to be true. Being friends with Kara she can handle. She doesn't want to be friends with Supergirl, not because she doesn't like Supergirl (she greatly admires her). But because being friends with Supergirl forces her to confront her biggest fear. After all, isn't that how Lex started out?

I suspect part of what draws her to Jimmy is that he acts as some form of reassurance that she isn't evil. If Superman's best friend Jimmy Olsen loves her she can't be too bad, right? It's also why she is quick to assume he had second thoughts, she doesn't think she is worthy of his affection.

I think it all fits together.

See, what I miss about Lena are the unreadable looks on her face mixed with Blake Neely's eerie "Lena Theme" like when she's sitting on her office couch and looks at the chess piece. Boom. Grey... Is she or is she not devious?

A well written grey character is layered... You love them when they're good (as we've seen of late), but then they do something slightly "bad," and it leaves the audience's going... "Oh snAP, what was THAT?!" Anne of Green Gables said it perfectly one time... "I wouldn't want to marry anybody who was wicked, but I think I'd like it if he COULD be wicked..."
Walking into Edge's office with a pistol wasn't bad...it was purely just... stupid... desperite... "easy." When it comes to Edge... I want to see her cold...calculating. And, in the end, I'm not saying I want her to go evil. But, I do want to, at least, see her actually fighting her inner demon, not just whine about her last name. I LOVE Katie McGrath. Give her layers to work with once they get past Reign.

And I'm still wanting to see Lena and Supergirl butting heads, with Kara figuring out how to handle it.

I agree that Lena will never replace Kara but I do think you are right that she kind of is the Cat in Kara's life. Not exactly the same as Cat but like you said a lot of similarities. I'm not sure her age being the same as Kara has anything to do with it since being a mentor doesn't really come with a certain age. Someone you look up to or strive to be like can be the same age and be a mentor. It's all about being mentor. Kara can just be Kara around Lena without having the Supergirl thing hanging over her head. Like she said before Supergirl is what she does but Kara Danvers is who she is.

I don't think the relationship was rushed with Lena. They didn't show all of it but they did alude to a lot of brunches and meeting and this season we've even had girls night so it seems like a legitimate friendship to me. I think the "what are friends for" is kind of their catch phrase and kind of an inside joke to a certain part of the fandom. That's just my opinion.

To me even if Lena found about Supergirl, Lena would still be Kara's only female friend on the show. Alex is her sister so that puts a different spin on that relationship. Otherwise she just has Winn and James as friends. I also don't think being Kara's friend on the show makes Lena boring. Seeing Kara the reporter, the friend is also an interesting part of the show. And as the show goes on we don't know what will happen to Lena's storyline. Just my two cents.

I'm not sure how Lena will ever be "Cat" in Kara's life, they are pretty much the same age, Kara knows far more about journalism than Lena does and there relationship wasn't built in the same way as Cat and Kara's relationship was built. Actually Lena and Kara's relationship was never really built, it was just suddenly a BFF relationship and it seems the writers feel they need to reinforce that for us by Lena calling Kara her best friend every time she speaks of her....that seems forced to me, because when did that actually happen last year? So I'm not sure what she is going to give Kara that Cat did, they are nothing alike...so the dynamic that Cat/Kara had would never work with Kara/Lena...Cat was Kara's mentor, already we know that Lena sees Supergirl as her mentor...so already that dynamic is far different. Yes, there is the stress of Lena not finding out, I think the underlying problem of her being a Luthor is at the bottom of that, but then of course Lillian knows so that whole dynamic is just stupid in my opinion....let Lena find out, there should be quite a bit of fallout, ESPECIALLY if she finds out that Sam is Reign and Kara is Supergirl....if that does not throw her up to the edge and IMO over, then that is ridiculous....no one coming from her background and being deceived by the 2 people she trusted the most wouldn't do something to someone's emotions. If that happens? then for me, the character suddenly becomes VERY RELEVANT, VERY EXCITING, AND VERY INTERESTING....Can Kara bring her back to the light? sure...and she should...but there has to be a major fall out, and that has to linger for quite a while, or it just isn't realistic to me.

Kara's connection to humanity is Alex, and her job...Lena is not needed to fill that void....it has always been filled.

So for me, it has nothing to do with liking Lena, she's fine...and Katie McGrath seems like a fantastic person....but the writing of the character has been weak at best.

Honestly, and I've mentioned this before, Lena may very well be playing out the same type of storyline that Katie played as Morgana in Merlin.

Since the writers needed to build the character of Reign to her fullest extent, they had to give us enough time to love Sam, so that real emotional tragedy could be created later on. Thus, I think, while it appears to some that Lena hasn't been given much development, she has slowly proven a love for Kara, a friendship with Supergirl, and a real desire to fight against her "bloodline" (hence the reason the writers keep having her bring up her last name so friggin much). HOWEVER, so far, that falls much in line with Morgana's story.....

For the first two seasons of Merlin, they wrote her to be loveable, heroic, a true friend to Merlin, all while she hid that she had magic (to keep a long story short, having magic was seen as... bad juju). Ironic that she never knew who truly Merlin was--a powerful warlock. Ever so slowly and meticulously, the writers created, in the end, Merlin's most formidable, yet tragically heartbreaking, foe...Morgana, who eventually gave into her hatred for being judged for being a witch, and... turned evil. (I won't tell y'all what happens or if she ever found out Merlin's true identity).

Anyway, sound like a possible familiar storyline?

Katie was perfection in that type of role. She created a layered character you loved to hate, but then hated that you hated her because she was merely a byproduct of how her father and brother (King Arthur) treated her.

I agree that Lena will never replace Kara but I do think you are right that she kind of is the Cat in Kara's life. Not exactly the same as Cat but like you said a lot of similarities. I'm not sure her age being the same as Kara has anything to do with it since being a mentor doesn't really come with a certain age. Someone you look up to or strive to be like can be the same age and be a mentor. It's all about being mentor. Kara can just be Kara around Lena without having the Supergirl thing hanging over her head. Like she said before Supergirl is what she does but Kara Danvers is who she is.

I don't think the relationship was rushed with Lena. They didn't show all of it but they did alude to a lot of brunches and meeting and this season we've even had girls night so it seems like a legitimate friendship to me. I think the "what are friends for" is kind of their catch phrase and kind of an inside joke to a certain part of the fandom. That's just my opinion.

To me even if Lena found about Supergirl, Lena would still be Kara's only female friend on the show. Alex is her sister so that puts a different spin on that relationship. Otherwise she just has Winn and James as friends. I also don't think being Kara's friend on the show makes Lena boring. Seeing Kara the reporter, the friend is also an interesting part of the show. And as the show goes on we don't know what will happen to Lena's storyline. Just my two cents.

I mentioned age yes, not because she couldn't be a mentor because of her age, if you read a little further I actually said that Lena sees Supergirl as her mentor and has said that.....so the age has nothing to do with "can she?" the age difference has to do with the dynamics of the relationship between Kara and Cat. Lena and Kara will never be able to have that kind of dynamic, nor should they.....she is her friend, not her mentor, not her mother, her friend. That is what they should be building upon and as has been stated, THIS SEASON, that is happening for sure, last season....no, not in the slightest, but this season they are building that friendship, I just don't see the need for Lena to keep calling her "best friend" because it seems as if they are trying to force that, when it really doesn't need to be forced. Season 2, I believe it was rushed, there was nothing in that season to show that they were best friends, save a few scenes....this season, not the case they are doing a good job of showing them as friends. Yes she is her only friend, but when she finds out who Kara is.....there has to be some fallout or that just is not realistic in the slightest. Well, heck as the show goes on, we don't know what happens to anyone's storyline...and as far as Alex being her sister? so? she is most certainly her friend as well. The two are not exclusive by any means....

I also see some equating Lena being upset when she finds out who Kara and Sam really are as "going evil...." that isn't what is being said at all, at least not by me. I would like to see the gray area with Lena shown more for sure....but what happens between Kara/Sam/Lena if and when Lena finds out has far more to do with betrayal, hurt, being deceived and working through that...I don't think it should be a quick fix, but I don't think it should turn Lena TOTALLY evil either.

But I'm sorry if that revelation doesn't send her tumbling, then she is a damn robot, not human.

I also see some equating Lena being upset when she finds out who Kara and Sam really are as "going evil...." that isn't what is being said at all, at least not by me. I would like to see the gray area with Lena shown more for sure....but what happens between Kara/Sam/Lena if and when Lena finds out has far more to do with betrayal, hurt, being deceived and working through that...I don't think it should be a quick fix, but I don't think it should turn Lena TOTALLY evil either.

But I'm sorry if that revelation doesn't send her tumbling, then she is a damn robot, not human.

If you are referring to me equating posts about Lena being upset about Kara being SG and going evil then, yes I am guilty of connecting those dots. When I read statements that Lena finding out about who Kara is should send her over the edge, then yeah, that's how I took it because to me the edge is the line between good and evil. Grey behavior is still up there on that ledge but, inching closer to the end of it. Over the edge is evil. Sorry if I misinterpreted your post and what you were saying. But, there have been other posts besides yours that have also led me to think that people thought that those two events were connected.

I definitely think that there should be a strong emotional response from Lena if she found out that Kara was SG. Being lied to or misled can be very hurtful, especially if not handled correctly. I just don't think it should send her to the dark side immediately, if it were to happen. I can see it being an event that initiates her going more toward that direction. Perhaps, because of the lie, she pulls away from Kara and others, closes herself off a bit more and maybe starts to put a toe into the darker waters. And then possibly some other event triggers a full submersion.

I don't know if anyone watches the Blacklist but, on the show there is a character named Reddington who is a bad guy but, he's a likable bad guy, one that the viewer actually forgets at times that he is bad and kind of roots for a bit. He goes back and forth between helping the protagonist and doing things that are morally wrong. So, the viewer and the protagonist never really know whose side he is on and what he's going to do next. He's also an intelligent criminal so, he never gets caught and put into jail. I could see Lena being this type of character, if the writers chose to go that direction. It would give her some depth and some room to play as an actor. It would also cause conflict for Kara who is still trying to keep Lena good but, knows that she is involved in behavior that goes against what Kara believes. Plus, it leaves the door open for Lena to eventually do the right thing. Of course, again, that's if the writers decide to go in that direction.

I also see some equating Lena being upset when she finds out who Kara and Sam really are as "going evil...." that isn't what is being said at all, at least not by me. I would like to see the gray area with Lena shown more for sure....but what happens between Kara/Sam/Lena if and when Lena finds out has far more to do with betrayal, hurt, being deceived and working through that...I don't think it should be a quick fix, but I don't think it should turn Lena TOTALLY evil either.

But I'm sorry if that revelation doesn't send her tumbling, then she is a damn robot, not human.

If you are referring to me equating posts about Lena being upset about Kara being SG and going evil then, yes I am guilty of connecting those dots. When I read statements that Lena finding out about who Kara is should send her over the edge, then yeah, that's how I took it because to me the edge is the line between good and evil. Grey behavior is still up there on that ledge but, inching closer to the end of it. Over the edge is evil. Sorry if I misinterpreted your post and what you were saying. But, there have been other posts besides yours that have also led me to think that people thought that those two events were connected.

I definitely think that there should be a strong emotional response from Lena if she found out that Kara was SG. Being lied to or misled can be very hurtful, especially if not handled correctly. I just don't think it should send her to the dark side immediately, if it were to happen. I can see it being an event that initiates her going more toward that direction. Perhaps, because of the lie, she pulls away from Kara and others, closes herself off a bit more and maybe starts to put a toe into the darker waters. And then possibly some other event triggers a full submersion.

I don't know if anyone watches the Blacklist but, on the show there is a character named Reddington who is a bad guy but, he's a likable bad guy, one that the viewer actually forgets at times that he is bad and kind of roots for a bit. He goes back and forth between helping the protagonist and doing things that are morally wrong. So, the viewer and the protagonist never really know whose side he is on and what he's going to do next. He's also an intelligent criminal so, he never gets caught and put into jail. I could see Lena being this type of character, if the writers chose to go that direction. It would give her some depth and some room to play as an actor. It would also cause conflict for Kara who is still trying to keep Lena good but, knows that she is involved in behavior that goes against what Kara believes. Plus, it leaves the door open for Lena to eventually do the right thing. Of course, again, that's if the writers decide to go in that direction.

I do watch the Blacklist, but the problem with that is we knew from the beginning that Reddington IS A VILLAIN, HE IS....he is willing to kill when he needs to kill, and he uses all of the villainy he accumulated over the years to help the protagonist, AND the protagonist knows that he is a villain. I think we have gone too far with Lena to be able to pull something even close to that off....Also, Reddington's desire to help STILL has the element of "he gets something out of it"...

Even if the writer's were able to begin sending Lena in that direction, her fans and fans of the actor would go bullistic....they do not want her evil in any degree.

Also, we had a character far closer to Reddington than Lena, by the name of Maxwell Lord.

NOW, could Katie McGrath play that part.....oh heck yeah.....so if they want to buck her fans (which they have before) then sure, start moving her that direction.....but she doesn't really have the backstory for it that I can tell.

Yesterday I rewatched Lena's first episode. Oh man... I didn't realize the difference until now, the spark I've been missing lately from her... The grey has definitely faded. Booooo. She was much "shadier" AND smarter back then. THAT Lena would NEVER let her emotions get the best of her, allowing her to walk right into Edge's office and full on whip out a gun on him. She would have been much MUCH more calculating.

Please draw her back into the grey.

I do watch the Blacklist, but the problem with that is we knew from the beginning that Reddington IS A VILLAIN, HE IS....he is willing to kill when he needs to kill, and he uses all of the villainy he accumulated over the years to help the protagonist, AND the protagonist knows that he is a villain. I think we have gone too far with Lena to be able to pull something even close to that off....Also, Reddington's desire to help STILL has the element of "he gets something out of it"...

Even if the writer's were able to begin sending Lena in that direction, her fans and fans of the actor would go bullistic....they do not want her evil in any degree.

Also, we had a character far closer to Reddington than Lena, by the name of Maxwell Lord.

NOW, could Katie McGrath play that part.....oh heck yeah.....so if they want to buck her fans (which they have before) then sure, start moving her that direction.....but she doesn't really have the backstory for it that I can tell.

Yep, Reddington is a villain who knows exactly what he is doing and is doing it for personal gain only. That makes him different than Maxwell Lord or even Lillian who do things because they feel that they're helping society. It also makes his character a bit more dynamic.

And yes, we were introduced to Remmington after he already became the person that he is now but, at one point, he was a good person. Most people aren't born bad, something happens to take them in that direction. With Lena, we would be at the beginning of the fall rather than at the end. If written well, her descent would be a slow one where the viewer could see how events and her actions take her further and further into the dark side. It would need to be a slow change to be believable for the viewer. We wouldn't necessarily like that descent as it happens but, we could understand how she gets to that point. And, when she makes that change, or even as she is evolving, having Kara know that it happening introduces the conflict that would be necessary in Kara's story. So, yes, she would know, too.

As far as fans - yes, some would have a problem with it. But, fans should not dictate what happens in a show or story. And when I say that, I don't mean that they should be ignored but, rather they can't be the sole influence on a show. EPs/writers have to look at each character, how they contribute to the show/story and what is the best way to drive both the story and the show. Fan opinion on characters and stories are so diverse that, if the showrunners tried to please everyone, then the show would become fragmented and without direction. And honestly, I think that that has been the case with Supergirl to some extent and has been an influence for some of the problems that the show has had.